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Jason Calacanis: Welcome to CalacanisCast beta 7:

I am here with Dave Winer the founder of RSS, OPMS...


Dave Winer: How many times are we going to do this...


Jason: I gotta do it because there are people who listen to the podcast who don't know what any of this is – so I try to be a little magnanimous about it. So...


Dave: Why don't we try this version of the CalcanisCast that we are all real jerks. No that that wouldn't come real hard to any of us, right? Based on what I've heard about all of us...

Well, not you Peter, Peter is...


Jason: Not Peter, actually. Peter is known as...


Peter Rojas: Well, I keep a low profile...


Jason: Everybody loves Peter, except for the people who didn't get linked to that day for the 787 people who reported that the iPhone is coming out. So the one person who got the link is fine, the other 700 people are very upset.


Peter: Yeah, I think its hard for a lot of people to understand that there are so many sites out there all covering about the same exact stuff that its almost becoming arbitrary who you link to.


Jason: It's impossible to know where it started.


Peter: But we always try to link back to the most original source. But it's blogging, it's supposed to be sort of a fluid, decentralized medium.


Dave: No, you're all supposed to link to me.


Jason: And you're capable of making a mistake too.


Dave: I'm feeling feisty now, this is terrible.


Jason: So, we are here to discuss the RWC player, as I've dubbed it on my blog.


Peter: And I'm glad that my name's first.


Jason: And I put my name last.


Dave: We are kissing up to you Peter.


Jason: So, basically, I know that Dave has had, over the years, a lot of discussions of “users-in-charge” and Peter has talked about all of the problems with the various players and is an expert in that. I, as an unemployed person was thinking about a list about all of things I was thinking about doing, including becoming a professional poker player which was a lot more serious of a comment than making an MP3 player with Peter Rojas, which was a total joke. It was something that Peter and I had joked about back in the day and all of the sudden now I am getting all these emails from Vcs, you guys are meeting and people are actually saying this is possible, so my question to you guys is: is it possible to create an MP3 player that would be better than the iPod? for us? for this type of user?


Dave: Well, for podcasting, I don't have any doubt because I don't think these players are particularly good at doing podcasting. There is so much of it needs to be done manually. And they are dangerous to use for podcasting. You know, try to listening to a podcast while walking or driving or whatever and you take your life into your hands. A lot of it is just the tuning of this idea up. What would a mobile podcast player/receiver...


And here's an important concept: A recorder too. I can't think of a single platform that has ever succeeded where you can't use the playing device to also create the software for that platform.


The Apple II is the earliest example of that, for me, the Apple II is a perfectly fine development system for Apple II software, so is the IMB PC, so is the Macintosh, so is the Internet for that matter.


So a podcast player should also be a podcast creator as well.


Yeah - I don't doubt that there is a need for something that is specifically tuned... there is another aspect to this too, these devices are all getting this very hairy DRM and podcasting so totally doesn't need DRM. So all of the inconvenience from a device that that all focused on DRM, just throw all that out because it wouldn't be on this device, there simply wouldn't be any there DRM anywhere.


Peter: Yeah, but, that's one of the complications with making a consumer electronics device is that would you have to make it compatible with all of these DRM systems? It just adds a layer of complexity that really shuts out a lot of smaller competitors.


Dave: It's a layer of broken-ness, Peter, its why these things don't work.


Peter: Its one of the big mistakes that Microsoft has made with the Zune is that they basically hey have tried to - you can't out Apple Apple at this game because Apple has it on lock-down and its a complete seamless lock-down, crappy DRM-laden experience and why would you try to out do that?


Dave: No, you should zig to their zag. In other words thing that Apple could never respond to is a DRM-less device. They would have to stay with what they are doing or walk away from all of the revenue that they've been able to achieve with the iPod.


Jason: So, if I'm hearing correctly, the Zune crippling the wi-fi...

For those people who are not up on this, the Zune is Microsoft's player and they've crippled the wi-fi in it..


Dave: It's not just crippling the wi-fi, it's crippled period.


Peter: But the crippled wi-fi is really... They put in the wi-fi and that was touted as sort of the iPod killing aspect of it. But it is is so limited in its functionality, yeah you can share a song but you've limited to three plays in three days.


Dave: It's the saddest thing.


Peter: It's almost embarrassing. And you can't use the wifi to download anything or to download music directly to the device and you can't do anything with the wifi except share a song in it's very limited capacity.


Jason: Which makes it basically worthless. The whole point of the wifi, the killer feature, that we've all hit on, because we've all listened to a lot of podcasts is: I'm out with my iPod, I'm walking around and there are wifi signals everywhere – why can't it be checking my RSS feeds/OPML do download stuff while I'm walking around.


Dave: It's like a radio, Jason, when you finally play it out, it starts to feel a lot like a radio but it's an Internet device and its a very, very low tech protocol.


It would be wonderful... ya know, Adam Curry and I started talking about this stuff in the first podcast we did together in 2004 and what we talked about then was the idea of going into a gas station and parking yourself there for a few minutes while your iPod or your car for that matter sort of gassed up on gas and it gassed up on great, new shows, new radio or new podcasts, but we didn't have the word podcast at that time.


I was living in Seattle at the time. Today, for example, Seattle has the WiMax covering the entire downtown. So, you wouldn't even need to go anywhere in particular you'd just be constantly logged and on checking your feeds. It would be wonderful. I think is would just be fantastic.


Jason: So, Peter since you know a lot about sourcing these things and the production of them in China, the manufacturing of them... on a feasibility level, we sort of have a very basic spec here.


Dave: Why would you want to go to China?

I would say create a reference platform the same way Microsoft creates a reference platforms for hardware OEMs. People have given me a lot of grief saying you don't want to be in the hardware business and they are right, I don't want to be in the hardware business. But what I do feel comfortable being in is sort of the reference platform business in other words: here are the basic features you needs to support in order to create one of these devices. And then we create a platform that you can develop software on and then I think we've really got something.


Jason: Well, that would be the platform, but let me ask Peter about actually making the device, because someone's actually got to make it. So, Peter: if the basic spec is wifi-enabled for podcasting, a recorder/ a decent microphone for podcasting, the ability to upload - the basic software would be pretty easy, I guess Compact Flash would be my preference because I like the idea of removing the stuff and not having a hard drive because I hate the short battery life of it.


How much do you think this thing would actually cost? How many would you have to produce? Because I don't think a lot of people understand the actual process. What do people go through when they make a small device like this and are there any people who already do it that we can learn from?


Peter: I think Dave got a big part of it when he said that the really important part tends to be the reference designer because these contract manufacturers in Taiwan or in China they'll build whatever you want but you still have to know what you want to build and you still have to have things spec'd out. And they may have some basic stuff that you can build on top of but you still have to integrate the software and the hardware and they'll customize it however you want.


I think that you'd have to get... it'd be pretty expensive... the per unit cost, if you had fewer than 50,000 or 100,000 units, of something like this, but again if we are going primarily after the sort of bleeding-edge enthusiast market who aren't necessarily about having the cheapest device possible but about having the most powerful device possible then I think you could get away with charging a little bit more.


Dave: Yeah, totally. I want the right device, its not so much that I want the most powerful one. I want one that is basically right and I want to be able to make it more right.


Jason: Right, so change the software, upgrade it, change the battery take out the Compact Flash Card...


Dave: It's got to be programmable. I've got to be able to put software on the damned thing. That's my Number, after everything else, it's also got to have a big enough screen so that it's visible so that you don't have to stop walking or driving just to be able to read the screen, so the screen is also important to me as well.


I don't care. The hard drive isn't important. Whether it has a hard drive or not, to me, first of all that is something that you can have five different versions of the damn thing on which has a hard drive and one which doesn't...


Peter: Yeah, well, you know there is an open-source operating system for digital audio players called rock-box which has actually been floating around for, I think, about five years or so.


Dave: Is that the thing that Phil Terrone was talking about?


Peter: Yeah, I think he might have been talking about rock-box. You know there are different devices that people have been able to flash it onto... some of the iRiver players and some of the arcose players. Ya know in some respects the basic framework is already out there and you can take something like rockbox and which is licensed under the GPL and kinda customize and in a sense popularize it, I think that's one of the problems is that rockbox doesn't have a champion.


Dave: Let's go. Let's adopt it. Let's go.


Peter: It's funny, I've sat down with Sandisk a few months ago and I'm actually am a fan of their Sansa line of players because its a great alternative to both the Zune and the iPod, and I told the guys “get behind rockbox, you should be ya know opening up your platform because you're never going to be able to... you're never going to have more engineering dollars than Microsoft or Apple.


Dave: What did they say?


Peter: They actually are taking some steps to open themselves up and sort of unofficially support rockbox on their players.


Dave: Their thing is very close but it's not as good as an iPod. I've had one myself and it stopped working and I had to go through their whole support system and their online docs and everything like that and it just isn't good enough. They are is close but...


Peter: I mean, what I like... they are still relatively new to the space. So I think that...


Dave: But they are talking to you, so that's a really good sign. I mean, because you're not going to get your phone call returned by Apple...


Peter: No, only when they are really upset about something.


Dave: Really? Well that's better than me. I think I upset them all the time but I can't really recall ever getting a phone call from them.


Jason: The ironic thing is I think I have 5 or 6 iPods here ,a couple of other types of players and I have a camera that plays stuff and none of these give ne what you want which is I've become addicted to podcasts and I just want to be able to get them as quickly as possibly and have many with me and when I go on the road it's like I try to hookup my iPod to my laptop and it's always wiping out what I have on there. I have 4 laptops and 2 desktops and its never enough with the iPod software.


Dave: The thing to take away is... I totally agree, and I've had exactly the same experience... and I think that the first piece of advice... the first thing that I – it took me a long time to learn this is don't try synchronization. Forget about that, because once you get into synchronization then you have 50 copies of things floating all over the place and the iPod doesn't do synchronization well especially if you have two or 3 computers at which point you end up losing stuff and its not predictable when you're going to lose it. People tell me that I'm wrong, I'm brain-damaged and I don't know what the fuck I'm doing or whatever, but ya know I guess I'm good...


Jason: I've had the exact same experience.


Dave: I think a lot of people do. I have a friend who is a technology sorta neo-phyte and she's bought $2,000 worth of iTunes into her iPod and she lost everything. And they're not letting her have new copies of anything - they say you are pirating from us... so alright that's the end of that.


It's not a good system, it's just not a good system.


Peter: I don't want... I refuse to use any software application to load music onto my device and I think that...


Dave: Well that means that you don't use an iPod then, right?


Peter: Right. That's why I won't and I've never owned and iPod and I never want to own an iPod to be honest.


Dave: See, I use an iPod, that's what I use.

It's the best of them all, you know.


Peter: What I like about the Sansa, about the e200 series, is that you can put it into mass storage mode and just drop and drop your onto the device and that is what I want.


Jason: Do you use a pod-catching software for that Peter?


Peter: I actually have it build in to my RSS Reader. It just dumps it into a folder and I just put the folder onto my player...


Dave: Mine too, I wrote my own, of course...


Jason: So what happens if, like lets say we (because I'm thinking on a business level) I know what's good about this conversion is that you have Peter who is thinking on a design level and we have Dave you know what's all available on the software level and I'm thinking about this on a marketing, sort of, business plan level.


Dave: Yeah, I think that's a great team – let's do it.

I think you'd be our business guy – do you want to be our business guy?


Jason: Well the thing I think that's interesting is if we did 1,000 of these or let's say we did a run of a 10,000 of these, if we could get the spec done... We could open-source everything, right, so we'd use the rockbox software and we'd need to get a develop team, I guess, then we'd need to have some level of marketing for this, but we could just pre-sell as I said on my blog 1,000 of these or 10,000 of these pre-sell them and put the money into like you know so that people know that the money is not going to get stolen or whatever as they'd have three real names associated with the project and then have somebody actually build it and get some prototypes going then bill 10,000 of them and ship them... It can't be that easy is it?

It just sounds confusing to me that you could just bill 10,000 of these things that easily.


Dave: Well, you're going to put this podcast up, right?

And you're going to put it up when, tomorrow?


Jason: I'm going to try to put it up tonight going up tonight.


Dave: So by tomorrow morning we'll have 80,000 people telling us we're crazy and 80,000 people hopefully saying let's go we really want this and then we'll get back together and we'll talk about it and we'll see what we've learned.


I think we've already put out enough in terms of blog posts. I don't know, Peter have you done one? I did one and Jason did one.


Peter: I did on my personal site, but I haven't done anything on Engaget yet because that's like stepping right into the battlezone.


Jason: Yeah, I wouldn't do that.


Dave: Well that's talking about competing with your other...


Peter: Right so I don't necessarily want to go there yet. But I think that at worst, especially since we are doing this all in public, the very worst that can happen is that companies that we're talking about are maybe going to steal some of our ideas.


Dave: You, in fact, what would be even better would be for them to steal our ideas and then get us to endorse the god-damned product, ya know. Let us profit from your stealing of our ideas.


Jason: That would be actually great if there was somebody who...


Dave: The problem with people in the technology industry is that people are so cheap, I won't say with why, but it was a big media company, they asked well very good but why should we pay you anything? Well, I said, when you go to a restaurant you don't have to leave a tip, but DO you?


Don't you appreciate good service. If we could do it on that basis I'd be perfectly happy just to sort of say this is the podcasting client that we spec'd out that we designed, that we love and that we are keeping our eye on it to and making sure they don't screw it up. If they screw it up you can be sure we're going to tell them that they screwed.


I mean Jason, you did that at AOL and that's probably why you got fired, right?


Jason: If only I had been fired I could've used the severance check actually!


Dave: I know, I had to say that. I do love you Jason.


Dave: I mean I'm perfectly comfortable criticizing and biting the hand that feeds me is something I'm very good at doing.


Jason: Yes, you're uniquely qualified!


Dave: I mean that would be a pretty incredible deal, actually, so.


Jason: We could look at it as an art project. I don't think this ever has to compete with iTunes or anything like that. As an art project prject we're making like an art car – podcasting. We're going to make these because we like them and they have a nice logo on them and people can buy them and have them forever.


Now let me ask you something about this, I know Dave you mentioned something about this on your blog that the idea of wifi-to-wifi: people tend to poo-poo that idea because there aren't enough people who have devices that can do wifi to wifi. Its sort of the Zune problem, right? You have a Zune and nobody else does then what's the point of even having the crippled wifi that's on it. Do you think that this idea of sending songs back and forth is really compelling? Do you think people would do it if there are enough of these out there?


Peter: Imagine if a Zune could share songs with a laptop? Why does it just have to be just another Zune?


Dave: Well, because they're not doing it in an open protocol. but you could.


Peter: That's what I'm saying.


Dave: I figured it out as he was asking the question. There is only one missing piece. Obviously the format you would use is RSS and every device basically, as you're walking around would have a default RSS feed that contains all of the things that you're willing to share. So as you're walking around and come within range of somebody who's got one of these feeds then you just grab whatever...


And then you tell your – I call these things Xpods, sort of like Xwindows, so your xPod sees that there's another xpod floating around and says hey you've got on of the RSS feeds and it comes back and says yes and you've told your guy in advance what to do in advance when it sees one of those things. Then the rest of it is just RSS with enclosures it doesn't have to be very high tech at all for it to work. And its exactly the kind of thing that fits right in with the RSS program. Its the kind of thing were we just put up a one page little spec for how this thing works and if the time is right it gains traction and if the time is not right we get a flame war over it.


Jason: Now let me ask this to Peter, because you have a lot of experience with your covering gadgets and stuff like that, if a device like this existed out there where you could shoot files back and forth and it was called an MP3 player as opposed to a laptop, do you think RIAA people would start suing people who have these?


Peter: I don't know on what basis they would be able to sue.


Dave: Wait, doesn't he have to be a lawyer to have an opinion about that?


Jason: No, he's covers all of these lawsuits so...


Peter: Well first off there actually have been... the is not the first MP3 player with wifi, there are other device out there with wifi and I mean I can't see on what legal basis they'd be able to sue. Just say its a podcast device, it's not an MP3 player.


Dave: It's a podcast device, period.


Peter: there are so many devices out there with wifi that can share files...


Dave: Well the beautiful thing about podcasting by the way is that all of these big media companies do them. They all have podcasts: NBC, ABC, CBS, I don't know if MTV has it but Viacom certainly does. And so they need to take a look at whether they really want to be in the podcasting world, because they are in it right now and... this is a podcasting device unless you happen to be podcasting music, in which case, sure...


Jason: I have the ultimate marketing plan for this, I was just thinking: imagine if we pre-loaded the device with the top 300 shows out there, just make a list up and each of those people but the badge on their site for the player... and their site would be preloaded on this player and then imagine if we had a reddit, digg, Netscape -type service where people could vote MP3 files up and down (podcasts, not MP3 files, podcasts I keep saying that). You could vote podcasts up and down and you could pull that RSS feed of the top 10 of the day, 20 of the day, whatever you set it at. And it would download them automatically so when you got in your car it would be like, oh, the most voted one today was “morning edition, the second was...


Dave: Well that's radio, right, that's the trip about radio. That's why...


It would just be incredible because right now I have no automatic remix.


Dave: The other thing is that podcasting is a commercial medium so a lot of things that people put out on podcasts have commercial value to them and so throw a few podcast feeds on there that make you some money and pay for some extra few bytes of RAM in the damn thing and let somebody pay for that -these are called ads.


Dave: But I don't believe in ads IN podcasts...


Jason: That's interesting that you mention that, Dave, because I just wanted to point out that this podcast the CalcanisCast beta 7 is brought to you buy GoDaddy and Podtech.


Dave: Don't do that!


Jason: PodTech and GoDaddy are donating money to put kids in school in Brooklyn so its not a commercial, they are making that donation. So we love GoDaddy for making that donation and we love PodTech for making that donation and I love both of you guys... PodTech great company, they make great products.


But anyway, here's in idea Dave that I wonder how you would feel about this if it's a little overbearing or not: How do you feel about GoDaddy?


Dave: I use goDaddy – I bought protoblogger .net and ./com today... because the New York Times called me the protoblogger...


Jason: So what do you think of the idea of having a free version, but the free version had on it that you automatically had these ten podcasts automatically pre-loaded all of the time?


Dave: You know what I say to that? Duh! Yeah, of course.


Jason: So you look at it and you're like I don't want to listen to the New York Times but you know the player automatically comes with ten podcasts...


Dave: Yeah, we could have a whole talk about this but you know commercial information... people spend a lot of time getting and looking for commercial information and you know it's conceivable you might still pay money for a thing that came with all kinds of great commercial information and as long it was stuff that you are interested in and its entertaining, you know, its like sure why not pay for it anyway?


Jason: OK, so we have an idea of what the device is...


We want it to be able to record podcasts: upload them and download them automatically...


Dave: Well, primarily a player, but you should be able to record them.


Jason: and be able to share them from player-to-player possibly.


Dave: No, not possibly: I think that's a requirement.


Peter: Yeah.


Jason: A why wouldn't you – it's no big deal. If you have wifi to download it's just...


Dave: Well it's also about how you are going to be recording them at your desktop, right?


Jason: Or on a wifi connection.


Jason: This is a thing that'd be really interesting is if all three of us were in a cafe right now with this device, and we hit record and talked and then we hit send, and I already had my setting in there (FTP settings or whatever) and it would upload it and then if you guys had the players in your pocket... and you were on wifi half of the upload completed, and you did your cycle you'd be downloading it immediately.


Dave: Oh yeah absolutely. And I'd be willing to be you that within two years we will actually doing that. It may not be with our device, but it some way shape or form we'll be doing exactly that.


Jason: And you know that starts to feel more like a phone that it does podcasting...


Dave: It has a lot to do with... podcasting and total phones are actually very similar, as is radio, it sort of... you know we are at one of those moments where a lot of things are like a lot of other things... you know...


Jason: It's very blurry, yeah, it's almost like a voice mail system that people used to have voice mail systems where you wouldn't pick up the phone but you would just send the message...


Jason: OK: I don't know if we've accomplished too much on this phone call besides that...


Dave: I think we have.


Jason: Have we?


Dave: What we've accomplished is that we've put out an idea, verbally, and now we are going to hear what other people have to say about it.


Jason: What do you think Peter? Anything let to add to this?

Anything that you think we are missing or that you would include in it? I think, I mean one of the things that everyone keeps saying on my blog is that oh “Make sure you include a radio” an FM radio and I'm like I don't know...


Peter: No, you, well the thing that I would say is that I would take a cue from the devices like the Chumby which are these open-source basically widget platforms and you could basically widget-ize the player and allow people to upload their own, you know, whether its a little widget for getting the weather or news headlines or just let any widget you could put on your player and whenever you connect to the Internet it would pull down your data.


Jason: Oh, that's very smart


Dave: I think it would be better to get the radio stations to provide timely information and in a form that this thing can get it.


Jason: Right, so if you're NPR you're doing it already you're included or not.


Dave: NPR is so into this stuff, and CNN also, I mean they are already getting into doing and they are doing it without anybody actually using it. CNN has an hourly news broadcast that goes out via podcast every hour, you know, so... nobody has built any systems around that yet but you totally could.


Jason: Maybe I should go to NPR, since I have no job now and nothing to do every day... maybe I should go to NPR or one of these people and say give me $100,000 to make 10,000 players and we'll put...


Dave: You'll never get $100,000 from NPR.


Jason: I could get it from CNN, pretty quick.


Dave: CNN maybe.


Jason: You never know with NPR – they have money. Or whatever, maybe I get five people to give $20...


Dave: So, whatever, go for it Jason. I get $33,000 and Peter gets $33,000 and...


Jason: No but, we get them to do that... what if we got someone to underwrite it and we put their logo on the player for underwriting it and they have default feeds and whatever...


Dave: Yeah, totally.


Peter: There are going to be a lot of logos on this thing.


Dave: Totally, let make sure we've got lots of room for logos.


Peter: It's gonna be like NASCAR.


Jason: Yeah, exactly.


Dave: It's cool.


Jason: I've already committed, you, Peter, to autograph the first 1,000 so get your Sharpie ready and make sure, uh... and Dave I think you are going to have to autograph the other side because I think that's going to be half the value if you guys autographing them in limited edition 1 through 10,000...


Jason: Alright, well this is a very interesting discussion. I'm fascinated by the fact that this little joke is now coalescing and if there are people out there who are thinking about this, who are inspired by this, who are fascinated, who are confused, whatever... there is only one thing you need to do is just write a blog post, do a podcast on it and move the idea forward... take this podcast, re-mix it, just keeping moving the idea forward because what we are in right now is a high stakes of poker between the forces of Evil and the forces of Good, as I look at it.


Dave: And you're the forces of Evil right Jason?


Jason: Of course, I've always been... but no.


Dave: You're a good guy, I don't want to say...


Jason: You know I really think this is about the forces of evil versus Good, I really think that DRM is obviously crippling these devices and these big companies are so in bed with the big media companies that they are willing to compromise the technology and the user experience for their own relationship with the media companies and that's...


Dave: I don't think they are Evil...


Jason: They are compromised...


Dave: They are dealing with the situation the best that they can in a confusing situation.


Jason: Well, no they are playing a game of poker as well. They are playing a game of poker with...


Dave: But we come in unencumbered. OK? Without their concerns so it makes it a little more fun I think.


Jason: Absolutely.


Dave: Although we do all have concerns, as Peter said, he's not quite ready yet for... and that's perfectly understandable umm and you know I've got to be careful about certain things too because unlike you I do consider this to be my livelihood, you know... this area is an active area of development for me so I'm not always going to share every idea that I have so freely so we all come at this from a different point of view and a different place and, you know, we all want to have a lovely product come out of this at some point.


Jason: At the end of the day I think that's what it's about – we all want a better product.


Jason: So, Any closing thoughts Peter?


Peter: I'm having a lot of fun with this right now.


Jason: It's pretty funny, I think.


Dave: Hey, I'll see you on the 21st Peter.


Peter: Yes, should I come by your place in Berkley?


Dave: Please, yeah, it'll be fun and Jason if you're in the area come too.


Jason: Unfortunately I'm going to be in New York with my parents but I will be up in the area probably before that..


Dave: I'll be in New York too by the way.


Jason: Of, for the holidays?


Dave: Yeah.


Jason: Oh, I'm coming back on the 27th or 28th but when you come to L.A. Let me know.


Dave: That's not really likely to happen anytime soon.


Jason: I'll be up there soon enough.


Peter: Jason, I might be down in L.A. Right before New Year's so...


Jason: OK, well we're closing on our new house on the 19th or 20th so do have the guest house...


Peter: I want to be the first one in the guest house...


Jason: You might be on a pull-out but if that's OK... there might be some boxes around... but if you're fine with that... you're all set...


Peter: I'll help you unpack.


Jason: You can borrow the Mini Cooper again.


Jason: OK, my friends, I really appreciate you doing this. I'm going to save the MP3 file and I'll put it up on my blog and I'll send you the URL in an hour, or less...

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